Video 60

61. Mandukya Upanishad | Chapter 4 Mantra 28-43

[Music] [Music] yes so we are on the fourth chapter and just to catch up on what has been happening just a minute yes just to catch up on what has been happening gaurav has been dealing with a number of opponents to his non-dualistic philosophy and the last one he tackled was the buddhist subjective idealist um buddhist vignavadi you know the one who thought that everything is within consciousness so he used the arguments of that buddhist to to defeat the other buddhists who who think that there is a world outside of of consciousness so that realist approach is refuted by using the arguments of the subjective idealist and then finally in verse number 28 chapter 4 verse number 28 i think this is where we stopped last time um so there he uh now refutes the buddhist idealist directly the only difference the major difference between the buddhist idealist and the advaita gaurapata's own position is this garapada also considers everything to be within consciousness and the buddhist ideal is also considers everything to be internal or within consciousness there is no external reality so why would gaurav other want to refute the buddhist idealist the viganavadin because the buddhist idealist considers consciousness to be momentary arising and then dying and then another consciousness momentary moment to moment flashes of consciousness are coming and going and that they think is the correct description of reality and in each flash of consciousness is the content of that consciousness so this is what we talked about last time i think we talked about some of the arguments against it basically in the 28th verse gowda pada says that consciousness is not born o buddhist you are saying that consciousness is born and dying moment to moment every moment consciousness is born and it dies and next moment a new consciousness comes up again now that is not true because origination being caused the causality itself is illogical which we have already seen there are multiple reasons why consciousness cannot be born cannot change and cannot die look at let's look at the verse number 28 which is i think where we stopped last time so consciousness has no birth and things perceived by it also are not born those who perceive the birth of consciousness may as well see foot marks in space itself basically what did he say just say that what we perceive in consciousness what we what we experience what do we experience everything everything in our waking states and everything in our dreams are all seen in consciousness and those things are not born how do we know all the old arguments which uh we have seen earlier things cannot be born of themselves things cannot be born of something else things cannot be borne of reality things cannot be born of the unreal and so on all those arguments nothing external is born at all then what is being said what are all these things then what do you see in waking state what we see in the dream state what are they then they are all appearances in consciousness they are not something separate from consciousness that was established and in this verse what he is saying is consciousness itself is also not born this is the question does not arise that consciousness what you are saying over this subjectivist that consciousness is born and dying moment to moment that's impossible for reason stated last time and earlier also and those who think that consciousness is born and it dies try to understand consciousness in that way he uses an uh a sort of exotic example here might as well try to catch hold of the footprints of the birds in the sky which means it's impossible all right we'll move on now verse number 29 so what's going to happen now so from verse number 29 to verse number 46 what's going to happen is gaurav pada is going to restate his conclusions the teachings of advaita which he did in chapter 2 and chapter 3 the whole thing he will restate in in his own fashion which is basically always an attack on causality that the effects are never born so there is no cause there is no cause and effect the reality is thorium the pure consciousness so this thing will be taught from verse number 29 to verse number 46 with the help of examples and you will see many of those things we have come across earlier especially in chapter two waitati prakaran a long time ago so what i will do is i will speak at length i'll take up each of these verses one by one translate it and then explain it and move on halfway through i'll stop and see what questions have come if there are hands raised and comments in the chat and then i'll resume again as i said i'll move a little fast this time one reason is of course trying to finish it but also because many of these things have been covered earlier before i start though let me tell you this something interesting once i was walking in the uh grasslands of africa vast grassland shrubs and grasses all around little dry and once in a long distance here and there some trees and i was walking and i was all alone and then distance i saw something moving towards me as i looked closely and i was beginning to feel tense what is it and it was a lion so there actually this big lion and was rushing towards me i was of course shocked and i was desperately looking around what to do and i saw a tree in nearby and i ran towards it and the lion was gaining upon me there's this big line with a huge mane and all and i climbed the tree uh and lions also can climb the tree they are big cats so as i was climbing the tree i saw behind and the lion was climbing the tree with this huge face and big mouth and i was so terrified after a while i couldn't climb anymore and the lion was gaining on me there's nothing i could do it was looking back and look terrified and very tense and i automatically started calling on sriram krishna i just started chanting jayarama krishna rama krishna ramakrishna and i woke up of course it was a dream i woke up now after i woke up i thought wow this is what god happened is talking about not only that dream but this world which we inhabit this waking world garoppolo is trying to make the case it's like that neither the plains the place where you were the space the plains of of africa that time whatever it was not the objects tree lion not even the body which i saw in the dream none of them were anything real what was real there the only thing that was real was the dreamer's mind the mind which produced the dream that was the only real thing and very interesting when the lion of samsara chases us we first try some worldly means of escaping it running away catching or get climbing the tree and when every worldly means fails we are helpless there is disease and death and terror and failure and there is no way of being rescued we start calling on bhagavan now at that moment if you are really lucky like i was then bhagavan will bless you and the blessings will be you will snap out of the dream of samsara the whole problem will be solved at one one blow if you are not all that lucky you have some good karma bhagavan will still bless you and save you from that line the dream will continue maybe the hunter will shoot the lion or lion will think this fellow is too skinny to eat and they'll go away and so some the dream of samsara will continue but you will be saved temporarily death and disease and those things will keep coming but really good karma or real grace of god is which takes you out of the dream of samsara enlightenment guard realization also another thing you notice is that in that dream i did not sit down and start taking the lion is chasing me now let me bring out my manduka karika and see what it says uh and let me do pancha ko shavichara drigrishya vivekar avasthatra the analysis of three states no i desperately called on god and advaithic knowledge or at least a dream to waking up that was given by the grace of god i snapped out just simply not by my own effort but by the grace of god this is a great truth even if we don't go we read all these things but by deep devotion and prayer and holding on to god alone that advocating realization god gives surround krishna said my divine mother has shown me everything what is there in veda vedanta so that is a clue a very important message for us directly by devotion also this knowledge can come i know in some cases where this has actually come they have got advaithic realization by doing mantra japan devotion to ishta devata okay with this background let us go on verse number 29 now so what is going to happen a restatement of advaita vedanta teachings with the help of these examples translation that birthless thing that is according to these other philosophers that that thing only takes birth birthlessness is its very nature so the change of this nature is can is not possible in any way whatsoever that's verse number 28 brahman is changeless so brahman cannot be a cause of the universe see to be a cause you have to change the seed has to germinate so seed has to change into in order to become a plant the milk has to curdle to become curd so the cause changes into effect if brahman cannot change then brahman cannot produce any effect not only that in that case brahman cannot be a cause so brahman is neither a cause nor an effect karya karana vilaksan abramha vilaksana means separate the sanskrit term meaning other then brahman arthurium is apart from karyakarana in the context paradigm of the mandukya what is karya effect the waking and the dream states waking and dreaming are effect and the deep sleep state sushupti is cause but what is turya neither effect nor cause you say so what you are that tourium you're neither an effect nor the cause we think we are jiva effect and god is the cause you're neither the jiva nor the ishwar but you are the reality behind ishwara and anjeeva turium nothing changes its nature its essential nature is not changed so consciousness does not change its essential nature it always remains the unchanging consciousness then number 30. so this is the speed at which i will proceed number 30. samsara translation if world samsara is beginningless its termination will not be achieved and there will be no eternality for liberation that has a beginning what does it mean in using the example you will see using the example you will see that the the meaning of this verse if samsara has is beginningless where does this question comes beginningly samsara remember we discussed about karma theory which is earlier bodies earlier karma is earlier is there a chain of body and karma is it a beginningless chain and so on all these things we discussed some time ago a few classes ago so samsara is beginning less this is how it is actually taught in vedanta so as usual god apart is going to smash everything if samsara is beginning less then it will not have any end that generally things which are eternal that means beginningless are also endless that which does not have an aadi beginning also does not have an anta so are these also usually but suppose some so if there is no end to samsara what is the problem problem will be there is no some there is no moksha there is no freedom there is no point to having manduka classes if samsara is beginning less now if somebody says yeah samsara is beginning less but it has an end by the grace of god you know like you woke up from that dream by the grace of god we will wake up from this nightmare of samsara what will be the problem the problem will be then your moksha by the grace of god i will get moksha then moksha will have a beginning till now there was samsara now there will be moksha do you remember this argument came earlier actually so up to now they were samsara now by my sadhana by the grace of god i have got moksha samsara has finished moksha has started if moksha has started you are in trouble that which starts will end that which is born will surely die bhagavan krishna has said jaata see dhruva um that which is born death is certain of that if moksha is born if moksha starts at one point in that case moksha will also come to an end what use is that moksha temporary moksha no good so samsara has neither samsara is not real it's not a real samsara think about the example when i woke up from that dream nightmare what did i realize did i realize until now i was living in africa and i was being chased by a lion now by some magic god has rescued me and put me in new york in vedanta society on the bed did i realize that from now on i am free of the lion no i realized i was never in africa never chased by lion though it looked like that it looked very much like that at that point on the tree i was climbing and lion was climbing after me if you told me all this is an appearance i would not listen to you then but it looked real to me but at that time also it was not real when it looked real felt real ah i was also really really scared at that time it also it was not real um it was an appearance so moksha was always there i was always free of that lion i was in bed bed safely in vedanta society in new york all the time similarly turiya is always free it does not get moksha so what is moksha it is the removing of the misconception it is enlightenment what is enlightenment it is removing of the misconception that we are bound so removing of the misconception of bondage is moksha ah and that moksha is always there bondage never there so that's why they say advaita vedanta it removes the bondage which was never there and what does it give you it gives you the moksha which you always had so that is is always removed or always destroyed always negated that which has always been negated is negated by vedanta practicia propti means that which you already had now you are given that by verantha but the whole play is one of ignorance and knowledge of realizing it and not realizing it now let us go to verse number 31. that which does not exist in the beginning and the end it does not exist in the middle though these things are similar to the unreal they seem to be real this verse is well known it is from the second chapter sixth verse of second chapter just repeated here so samsara is unreal even if it is experienced again look back at the example the lion which was not there earlier and after waking up also is not there but when i was seeing it it seemed very real though unreal it seems very real samsara though unreal it seems very very real um other one teacher you are nasty that which is not that the beginning that which is not there at the end our normal way of our ordinary way of understanding is yes we know people are born before birth they are not there at least we don't see them people die and after death they are not there so at least we don't see them they may be there but in the in between we are sure they exist after birth and before death they do exist all the things which are produced all the gadgets and places and things like this before uh their existence before their production they were not there after the destruction they will not be there but during their in between production and destruction they do exist this idea alone brings up some sahara we think that there is a real creation and a real destruction this is what gowdapada is arguing against he says when the part has been created from the clay actually no part has been created you know this example very well when we investigate the part before the part was made it was clay but during the existence of the part when we investigate it we find it is clay only it has a name and a function and a use nama rupa bahara but the substance is clay only it was clay continues to be clay and when the part is broken what remains clay only so the part which was not there before its creation it was not there after its destruction what godapad is saying in between also when it seems to be there it's not really there the lion which you did not see before going to bed yesterday the lion which you did not see after waking up from that nightmare in that nightmare also that lion which you were seeing was it really a lion no was it really there no kovid 19 which was not there at least into our knowledge before december which will not be there hopefully after some time right now of course it's terrible god or father will say no then what do you mean what is here right now about the dream we can understand what you are saying the part to some extent we can understand what is here right now i can understand how the clay is the reality but part is only a name part a form like this and a function you can put water in it but what about this world this world is also name and forms and activities functions relationships then what is the reality like clay was the reality of the part mind is the reality of that dream lion what is the reality here consciousness you the consciousness thuriya is the only reality whatever you meet whatever you you encounter good and bad external in the world internal in your mind all of that is an appearance in consciousness not different from consciousness and nothing has happened there consciousness alone remains as consciousness this is the great message of god once if we realize this in the midst of it also we will be safe um let us go to verse number thirty two so this we have discussed earlier thirty one ah other one nasty that was in the second chapter this has been discussed thirty-two so the utility of those things is contradicted in a dream therefore from the fact of their having a beginning and an end they are rightly held to be unreal so these are arguments which we have seen in the second chapter this argument that no no you cannot say that these things have your these things are false because they have utility the world has utility you feel uh thirsty drink a glass of water and then you your thirst is quenched so the water is real it isn't you can't say it's like a mirage water there is water appears to be in the mirage when you go and see there is no water there that water cannot quench your thirst the real water in my water bottle can quench my thirst um the people of the world they are real and your dream line may may be false it cannot do anything to you except scare you but go to brooklyn zoo there the lions are there and those are real lions and if you try to mess around with them they will bite you so that is not not false at all there is utility there is actual action in this world so isn't it true so utility is utility and argument for reality if things work are they real no he says in dream it is contradicted utility was there in the dream water in the in the in the mirage and the water in the dream can quench your thirst in the dream you drink that water you feel quenched when you wake up you realize there was no water to the dream water in the real world right here next to your bed and in your dream you are dying of thirst no water anywhere the water is there in your bed in your bedroom near your bed but you cannot drink that water with water of the waking world no use in dream water in the dream world no use in the waking world or it does not exist at all in the waking world utility though it works so utility is no argument for reality the part remaining as clay gets new utility when you give it a part shape and a part name you can use you to store water or milk or whatever so new utility is there so similarly in the world utility is there activity goes on this is called vevahara but the reality is not altered thereby it does not become a real world thereby in a movie hero comes and drives a car or the robbers are escaping in a car and the car and the police are chasing them in their car do the cars work or not yes they work that's why there's a car chase the police car works and the robbers car works and both are rushing along in the road there's a car chase because the cars are working but you will say hey hold on that's a movie there's really no car no cops no rubbers true that's what garupada is saying in the movie it's only a light and pictures and sound here it is consciousness alone in which again light pictures and sound are appearing and the great thing is you are that consciousness moving on verse number 33 [Music] bhutan [Music] all the entities are unreal in a dream since they are seen within the body how can there be the vision of creatures within this narrow space here if you remember these are arguments which we saw in the second chapter the second chapter if you remember gauravada used the example of a dream and tried to prove that the waking world is like the dream and so just like the dream is false the waking is also false that was the argument so to do that first he had to prove that dream is false um so what you see in the dream we normally say which is dream just synonymous for falsity but philosophically speaking you have to be very clear that it you have to demonstrate why give reason why do you think your dream is false the godhead gave some reasons in the second chapter he repeats them here so for example dream is false because you do not you the people and the places and the things you saw when you wake up you realize it was all in your head but they can't be in your head how can a big lion be in my head it seems like a silly argument but you have to give those arguments why is the dream false you woke up now why do you think that you are in new york and not in africa it could be that you fainted you were in africa and the lion was chasing you and you fainted fell down from the tree now you're dreaming you are in new york why do you think so that that was a false thing so when you wake up here you realize there is no lion no africa nothing one reason is i dreamt it in my mind in within myself of course a lion cannot exist within myself no matter how big and empty my head is in not enough space for a lion to exist so some great adasha space is not compatible and you will see next time is not compatible therefore dreams are false just like those false dreams waking world is also false but for a different reason making worlds false because you remember the reasons it is not apart from consciousness that's why it is in consciousness number 34 server it is not proper to hold the dream objects are experienced by reaching them since the requisite time involved in the journey is lacking moreover nobody on waking up continues in the place of a dream so simple if i if i was really in africa on a tree being chased by a lion if that was real then when i would wake up or whatever would happen i would still be in africa but when i wake up i see i'm in new york and there was and i see that i went to sleep three or four hours ago so three or four hours is not enough for me to go to africa and be chased by a lion and that's not enough so clearly time is incongruous space is incongruous where you are dreaming when you wake up you don't wake up there you wake up in a different place the time which you saw for the dream that is not enough for you to actually go and do those things so for these reasons dream is false compared to the waking then the next one these are very similar to what we have been doing earlier in second chapter 35. mitra shetty again going on to prove the falsity of the dreams let me translate having conferred with friends and others in dream one does not get confirmation when awake and when whenever whatever one has acquired in a dream one does not see it after waking up again why is a dream false because suppose in your dream you meet a person who is your friend you go to a friend's place and talk to the friend and come back next morning when you call the friend and he does not remember the conversation he'd say no we didn't meet so he does not confirm your you're meeting him says what is after waking up your meeting with the friend is not confirmed you are a lawyer and your client comes to you some mantra means for consultation you're a lawyer and your client comes to you for consultation and you spend a long time two hours giving him advice and suddenly you wake up and you some it was a dream but anyway let me just send him bill him for two hours you send the bill your client will be furious that's the last time you will see that client say i'm billing you for two hours i gave you advice what two hours i mean my dream i gave you advice in my dream for two hours no that won't work some mantria mitra with consulting with a friend is not confirmed after you wake up similarly another thing example he gives is whatever you get gritam chapit kinship shankaracharya gives the example of getting gold etc suppose you win a lottery even a lottery in the dream you're delighted and you rush to the bank and deposit it next morning you wake up and you check your bank statement nothing none of it is not one cent it has increased it might have decreased if some other bills are being deducted but the lottery deposit is not there so what you gain in a dream you don't find in the baking state and therefore it is not to be taken as real let's do one more then i will stop and take questions these are all showing the falsity of the dream you might say i know that the dream is false why why go through all this again no because once the falsity of the dream is established then gora pada will show exactly like the dream the waking state is also similar just as the dream is false so waking is also false false means appearance just that there was no africa there there was no tree no terror no lion you wake up and you understand that similarly here also this samsara is an appearance um ok there are issues which will take up let me do one more because it is related to this dream example [Music] moreover the body seen in a dream is unsubstantial since another body is seen to exist as is the case with the body so is everything perceived through consciousness and therefore unsubstantial so here we come to the point one point even the your body which you saw in the dream is not real isn't it the body which i saw with which i was running chased by the lion and the body which climbed the tree then the i woke up why why is that body unreal uh god upon the says because another body is seen because you are switching bodies when you wake up the body in which you wake up is the body in in new york in the vedanta society on the bed here and you wake up this body is not the one which you were dreaming of climbing a tree in africa that body was maybe sweating and dusty and had cuts and bruises maybe half eaten also by the lion but this body is fine so there are two different bodies therefore the body seen in the dream is also false now comes the essential argument and say all right all this is fine but what is your point as is the case with the body so everything perceived through consciousness is unreal everything that you see here why what's the logic i don't get it this is the crucial point this is the point where you have to pay attention one thing we agree everything that was in the dream africa tree lion body events activities they were nothing other than the dreamer's mind not one thing was there actually apart from the dreamer's mind true we agree here similarly here he says there is everything that we see here not one thing is apart from consciousness everything is in consciousness just a minute people are calling everything is within consciousness not apart from consciousness is in fact nothing other than consciousness therefore not being a separate reality though it appears to be a world and a body and a room and problems and all of that how can you justify any of them exist other than consciousness no that is what has been said so far all that you see in the waking state jagratra pancha all that you see in the dream state swapnapanja and that only is there in the deep sleep in a potential form all those are appearances and disappearances within consciousness there is not the ayat of proof or possibility of proof that they exist in any way apart from consciousness apart from thorium so what you are that thorium not one thing here is separate from you it is you alone appearing with all these names and forms just as i alone was appearing as lion as the terrified sarvapian and the running and as the africa as the tree all of that i alone was appearing i admit it myself not one thing was outside me same thing is true here remember though the dream is false with respect to the waking but the waking is not false with respect to waking waking is false with respect to turia with with pure consciousness as the person in the dream i could not deny the dream no matter how much mandu kyo taught me if you came to teach me manduk when the lion was chasing i would tell the lion they catch that fellow eat that mandu kefalo don't eat me there i did not feel that this will be of any use immediately i called to sriram krishna save me so that within the dream sphere that it is it feels very real and is practically real only from waking how did i make the dream falls by journey journey from not africa to new york from dream to waking how will you make this waking falls by journey how what journey from waking to turia and that journey how will it be accomplished by aeroplane space shape how no by knowledge only manduka class by that only that will show you the thorium ok let us take a break here and look at the question i am sure lot of outraged hands and comments on the chat lets see yes you mentioned the word athletic realization is the realization from the end is different from uh realization through the bhakti path i mean one of the things that in a story that we talked about in one of your talks about madison sarasota he was a he was in navarti he was apparently he was a realized person in that bhakti tradition and then he became an athlete and i'm i'm feeling that he probably got a new new revelations or whatever so my question is is there different from different paths realization um a little difficult to say that see what would be advaithic realization advaithic realization would be something like waking up from the dream of the nightmare of being chased by the land to suddenly waking up here safe and sound in new york similarly waking up from the nightmare of samsara to turia where you are absolutely secure there is absolutely no problem never has been a problem that also you realize earlier also there was no problem somehow magically this nightmare of samsara was there but it was actually not there also according to god of other so that would be the realization the bhakti realization would be that a certain individuality will be maintained and i become aware of the the tremendous presence of god of ishwara that turiya alone which i realize as my own self there i still have a little difference i remain as that jiva but i certainly am aware of the gracious presence of saguna brahma nathuri alone appears as saguna brahman so from advaita perspective that would be a preliminary godupath will talk about it so what about bhakti he will talk in the next few verses we leave it at that next yes thank you i have a basic question on consciousness i find myself going back to basic questions again and again um western philosophers describe consciousness as sort of the feeling of what it is like what is it like to be a bat what does the taste of chocolate feel like what does the smell of a rose feel like is this is this what it is like type of consciousness different from the universal divine unconditioned consciousness brahman or atman or is it some sort of lesser type of consciousness is there in other words is there an everyday type of consciousness that deals with the reactions from the outward world or is it identical to to brahma and if it is identical then then brahman is really an everyday experience and and that also seems like a different thing to difficult thing to grasp all right my question is is there two different kinds of consciousness right so answer is short and sweet answer is yes and no yes no but let me explain it's very it's actually very very precise i mean it's nothing mystical not even difficult to grasp yes there are two different uh things they are talking about the western philosophers are talking about philosophers of mind are talking about our present experience what we are experiencing right now so seeing hearing smelling tasting touching um so like seeing a rose all those uh like what is it like to like to be a bat thomas nagel if from a batch perspective but nothing spiritual about it the bat has a has a echolocation sense how what will be like to experience that so our day-to-day experiences what is this thing called consciousness this is what advaita vedanta calls the the brahmata knower consciousness lighting of the mind mind is thoughts with ease so consciousness lighting up the mind through that lighting up the injuries the sense organs and through that exploring the world so um consciousness plus mind plus injuries that is your british that is your pramata brahmata means knower consciousness using the instruments of knowledge is called knower all right so they're two different things that the other thing is pure consciousness turya which is the witness of waking dreaming deep sleep which is the ground of reality entire universe appears and disappears in it so it seems very different so that's the first answer yes there are two different things that second thing which we are talking about the turia the brahman western philosophy ah neuroscience and all they have absolutely no idea about it absolutely nothing it's and that's why it leads to tremendous confusion um sometimes they're talking about consciousness as such sometimes they're talking about the mind sometimes they are talking about senses these differences are not very clear differences between perception mind and consciousness itself these are very clear when you come to advaita when you come to yoga philosophy for example the distinctions are very sharp very clear and sharp and they are well defined the definitions are not at all clear in western thought now the second answer is no they are not different where does this consciousness in the mind and in the senses come from according to advaita vedanta it is the same consciousness same brahmanatorium the brahman orthurium pure consciousness shining upon the mind which is itself an appearance within brahman is called reflected consciousness that reflected consciousness alone illumines the mind and the senses and all so this empirical consciousness or pramata is nothing apart from the turian just like the good example is sunlight and moonlight so the sun illumines the world in daytime but nighttime now uh the moon shines upon say manhattan it illuminates everything in manhattan so how about wonderful moonlight but we know this moonlight is nothing other than the sunlight if there were no sun there would be no moonlight either so for example when the moon is hidden by the shadow of the earth no moonlight if the moon had its own light it would keep on shining no it does not it is only sunlight reflected from the moon which comes and illumines the earth at night so the moonlight is like our consciousness is like the consciousness in the mind and in the senses which is taken as consciousness alone by western scientists or philosophers and is very good reason for that because that's the most obvious thing to us but just like at night there is no sun to be seen it's only our knowledge of astronomy which tells us that there is actually sunlight which is being reflected by the moon but we don't nobody can see the sun at night on the night side of the planet so in the same way the pure consciousness is not visible is not evident here though every bit of consciousness we are seeing like every bit of moonlight is nothing other than sunlight similarly just like the moon reflects sunlight onto the earth the world like the earth is now illumined by the mind but the mind is like the moon in fact in vedanta the symbol for the mind is the moon and symbol for atma is sun so sun light that means consciousness is reflected or channeled through the mind and it appears to us our empirical way that is the same consciousness and the proof of that is as you said brahman then should be an everyday experience if it's the same thing though we don't say everything is lit up by sunlight at night but the fact is everything is actually lit up by sunlight i mean astronomically speaking then everything that we are experiencing now is brahman or our consciousness by by brahman's light or consciousness we are experiencing true that's why they say the highest realization ken when in every experience which experience seeing hearing smelling tasting talking walking thinking loving hating fighting in all experiences one brahmana alone shines and this is recognized and so that leads to him that is that is immortality one wins immortality that is that is advaita vedanta yeah good then [Music] who else is there i wanted to go back to our discussion on advent vedanta and put this schools so first question maybe i missed it but i i remember you mentioned that godfather at some point will take on vidyanawata but did you also no he doesn't he doesn't take up sunnyvale now only it responds to the ganabada should nevada advaitha has a strange relationship with sunnyvale in some places it is sidestepped should nevada and some places dismissed as nihilism which is unfair because there is not nihilism really as that nothing exists they also do not say that nothing exists surname to me again felt very similar because both schools have made the big leap saying that consciousness is everything it becomes a question of mechanics right whether it's changeless or whether it's streaming correct versus advertise quite fascinating because both of them are very extreme in the conclusions yes one says god only is and the other one says uh void only is right i mean that's a very simplistic way of putting it my understanding is simplistic so i'm trying to like speak from that perspective so it's like there are two sides of a coin right or um diameter it's like i was wondering because is it because as you said nihilism isn't why buddhism became um so widely popular in the rest of asia and now in west that's sort of the first question and second was would you recommend a which should nevada 101 text would you recommend if you had okay it's a fascinating very fascinating yeah i've been fascinated by it for a long time i've been reading about it for 20 years and in fact i was very happy to find when i went to harvard last year that one of the courses being offered was by professor garfield indo tibetan madhyamaka madhyamaka is the correct technical name for sunnyvale so just as vignavada is called yogachara so shunnabada is called madhyamaka madhyamaka navada so there was a course i did a whole course on the entire indian literature on sunnyvale and the tibetan literature on sunnyvale so nearly two thousand years of sunnyvale uh this is fascinating uh which is why i hesitate to give any direct answer to it uh your first question was uh is uh i just uh one was contrasting is a question of mechanics you were saying yes that was the first one second was versus uh advert vedanta was like one says god only is and the right is you know void and it seems they're so diametrically opposite that it's very hard to reconcile either you're in this camp or you're in this camp it might explain why buddhism probably because it's god less sort of a philosophy that yeah right so let me just say that uh the first one vignavada is uh and the difference between vignavada and advaita seems to be only mechanics because both are saying that every consciousness is everything and everything is in consciousness yes and no because um as they say the devil is in the details so when you come to viganavada from an advertising perspective they are making a huge huge difference a huge huge mistake the mistake they are making is they are still unable to separate mind from consciousness that is why they feel consciousness is flickering it is the mind which is flickering on the screen of unchanging awareness so there advaitha has a serious objection and it's not a minor objection because unless you do a thorough job of separating rishi and drink seer and seen you'll still be left with a mixture of consciousness and not consciousness subject and object and still the job will not be accomplished though it will become all internal then but still it is mind and consciousness together um now nihilism is it because of that so you use two things is it because the realistic approach it's become popular or godless approach to become popular the two are different nihilistic means nothing exists neither god not self everything is void but sunnyvale does not say that and that would be a useless position it will be very easy to dismiss but sunnyvale nagarjuna himself in the original text of sunivada the moola madhyamaka karika there he clearly says we are not saying that nothing exists for example something like the atman or this universe for example or god what are you saying what is nagarjuna's position do you say it exist we say no we don't say that it exists i say god does god exist we don't say that it exists so you're saying god does not exist we don't say that it does not exist and so god exists and does not exist that's contradictory we don't say that god exists and does not exist so you are saying god neither exists nor does not exist no we are not even saying that so chatushkoti vinir mukhtar that the four logical alternatives are denied and the realities beyond the four possible concept conceptions of the human mind so that's what nagarjuna is trying to say um but what does that mean advaitha actually it's not so difficult if you hold on to it you begin to see what they're trying to say even vignavada but what nagarjuna is trying to say has become an object of fascination for philosophers down to today especially in the last hundred years or so advances in western philosophy lot of western philosophers have become fascinated not so much with shankara or with vigyanavada but with nagarjuna so you are asking what is the original text the original text foundational text is moola madhyama kakarika 101 i wish there was a good one or one but all that i have come across till today is deep and complicated complex controversial ah nagarjuna is not a philosopher who see nagarjuna has been seen as a buddhist of course he's a buddhist some say that no he's not a buddhist he's a nihilist some say that no he's an absolutist that he's actually talking about the advaita brahman but pointing towards it negatively some say that he is a modern deconstructionist like darida so there's so many views of nagarjuna it's very slippery i don't think there is a single 101 book i can give you a list of books though so the moolah madhyamaka karika with its commentaries the best translation i found till now is by like i have half a dozen translations of that and three or four commentaries on the mullah madhya kakarika there have been commentaries by at least two big commentaries by indian philosophers 1500 1600 years ago at about four or five commentaries big ones by tibetan commentators so muhlamad democracy that's that's the original text um any number of books by by modern tibetan writers i mean their english translators let me see i have to think about it okay like it's just like is there a text that could somehow reconcile okay that you want yes that you want yes uh write that down by um trv murthy t rv mutti central philosophy of buddhism it's a classic text this is the first this was my first introduction to the problem of wada and advaita trv murthy central pleasure of buddhism highly regarded text and also makes lot of tibetan buddhists and sunnivatis furious because he says more or less both are pointing to the same reality advaitha and okay let's take one more before we move on yeah swamiji like the very fact that uh we have decided our goal is god realization is also done in the waking state and then also bhagwan says falsity of this state is difficult to comprehend yes but notice what will be god realization the god realization will be first of all the reality of god i realize that god is real i may have vision i may feel the presence of god ultimately what will it be that everything that i see inside and outside all is pervaded by god god got me the son of da sharatha rama is actually is present in every entity in the world my gopal is present in every every being of the world shiva gyani jivaseva sriram krishna said all jivas are nothing other than shiva what does that mean that which you thought was world that which you thought was human being man woman child good and bad all that is none other than shiva or rama or krishna that means what you thought of the word the jio and jagat that is false that is the falsity of the world from a bhakti perspective when you realize all is god and there is nothing other than god if you realize that that is what god of other means by falsity we will see now it will come all right let's move on number 37 yes number 37 since a dream is experienced like a waking state the former is held to be the result of the latter in reality however waking state is admitted to be true for that dreamer alone and being the cause of history okay we're still in dream and waking state analysis number 37 so what he is saying is what did we do number 37 isn't it yes so what he is saying is that the waking the the dream state is an effect of the waking state this is what we understand you do not have need advaitha for that any psychologist therapist psychoanalyst will say what you dream about is an effect of your waking experiences things that we experience in the world with our senses what we read about what we think about especially the things which impact us emotionally we have a we are affected by it those things come out in the dream usually so he says whatever we experience in the waking world that creates the vasanas and through that vasanas the dream world is created and there is another similarity between the waking and the dreaming in the dream world also just like the waking world in the waking world we have subject i and objects and the objects are spread out in space and also continuous in time the same thing is felt in the dream world i am a subject experiencing an object though though the interesting thing is though we experience subject object time space i am there the space vast african plain and there's an object the lion and it is coming towards me and time is going i have to run there's not much time the lion will catch me so time space objects all are there just like waking world in the dream world also and because of this similarity he says it shows that just as the dream world is false the waking world is also false from their respect perspectives from the from the waking state from the dream state dream is is to be taken as as real within the dream state it is taken as real similarly within the waking state the waking objects and people and happenings are taken as real from the perspective of the waking state you cannot falsify the waking from the perspective of dream state you cannot falsify the dream only from the perspective of waking did i falsify the dream when i woke up i was able to falsify that africa experience lion experience and similarly only from the turia perspective we can say that the waking and dream are both false he showed the similarity of cause and effect here he says because of waking state we are having this dream experiences because the same experiences are reproduced in the dream not only that the structure is same there is time there is space there is subject object then number 38. [Music] since origination is not well established it is declared by the upanishads everything is worthless moreover there is no origination in any way whatsoever of any non-existing thing from an existing one all right what is said here since the dream state is false we all agree nobody denies that the dream state is false status false means the contents of the dream what is experienced in the dream that is not real we all agree similarly gora pada is trying to establish there is no fundamental difference between the dream state and the waking state both are appearances and therefore waking state is also status is similar that's also not real if they are not real waking and dream are not real then brahmanathuria cannot be a cause it did not produce the the objects of the dream state or of the waking state if it is not a cause then turia is is beyond causality that's what he is saying since causality is not well established he says causality or origination is not well established therefore it is said that the sarvam ajam all that you see in the waking state sarva madhyam this is the favorite phrase of godhapada all that we see in the waking state is not originated we think it's all originated everybody all of us we were born we have an origin we have been created every item that we use has been produced this is our common sense idea entire universe was created big bang all of that god upon the sweeps away and says none of this has been originated no more than the lion in your dream the body in your dream or the tree or africa in your dream none of it that africa was was it really part of the world was the world in your dream produced by big bang was the lion born from lion father and lion mother no it was all of an appearance in your mind in the same way this entire universe is not denying big bang but what he's saying even big bang will be an appearance in consciousness all of this is an appearance in consciousness sarvam ajam then what is it really speaking though it appears to be born and existing and dying but really if it is nothing other than consciousness then the only reality here is and always was is and will be consciousness or brahmana and that what you are that then number 39 ashwa [Music] having seen some unreal thing in the waking state and being emotionally affected one sees it in the dream also having seen some unreal thing in dream one does not see it in the waking state just like my example of the of the lion by seeing something in the waking state it creates an impression on the mind see the question here was the question here was you just said two contradictory things you said that nothing in the dream state is is real it has not been produced and then you said that the dream state is an effect product of the waking state you said to the two things the waking state produces the dream state all the activities in the waking create an impression which produces things in that dream state and you're also saying none of them have been produced survamajam aren't these two contradictory you just said waking produces dream and now you say neither waking nor dream are produced so he is making a subtle distinction here he is saying the distinction is this just because you see something and it feels real feels tangible does not mean it's real the africa you saw the lion you saw the tree you grabbed and your terror you felt did they not feel tangible yes but was it real no um it does not this is the crucial point it does not take a real experience experience of a real thing to create an impression in the mind one may see horror movie a ghost in a horror movie in the waking state and then dream of a ghost now what you saw in the waking state was not real but it produced an effect in the dream state that is also not real what godappath is arguing is it does not take a reality to produce an effect it does not take a real thing in the waking state to produce an impression in the waking in the dream state you don't have to dream about things in the in the dream and that does not mean though it was produced by the waking that does not mean in the waking there are real ghosts no somebody sees something by mistake somebody you know sees a snake like the like the ghost is a good example nightmare caused by something that you that you actually never did see jurassic park the child gets nightmare at night and dinosaur is coming now that does that mean i saw the dinosaur was produced by something in the waking state so in waking actually i saw a real dinosaur no false dinosaur seen in the waking state in the movie has produced a false dinosaur scene in the dream state similarly like lucid dreaming or vr it goes on then let me go to 40. there is no one real thing that has an unreality as its cause there is no unreal thing that has reality as its cause there is no existing thing that means a real thing which has another real thing as its cause how can there be an unreal thing that is produced out of something real you might say what is he saying here this is exactly what god loves doing but it's very simple actually he's saying a real world cannot be produced from brahman there are four options assat cannot produce assad assad means non-real what did what what does he mean by asset that which does not exist so what is producing what can a non-real thing produce a non-real thing no a non-real thing like the son of a barren woman the the classic examples in sanskrit or a flower in the sky these things don't exist can they do something can they produce some action some results are my item no that which does not exist how can i do anything how can it produce anything so from an unreal cause unreal effect cannot be produced that's one option ruled out second option from an unreal cause can a real effect be produced even more impossible suppose so unreal unreal flower in the sky flower in the car push pus flower in the sky can it produce a real fruit of course not impossible unreal thing cannot do anything third from a real cause can a real effect be produced so this is the this is how we understand causality in the world real cause is there and produces real effect a real seed is there produces real plant real god is there produces real world or real big bang is there produces real universe this is what we think but this has already been ruled out again and again by the pot and clay example the real real clay does not produce a second thing called a real pot the clay if you take it as real once a plot is produced so called produced when you examine the part you see no second thing has been produced if it's the second thing countably second then you can separate the clay one and the part two no you cannot in the same way from consciousness you the awareness try to separate anything world your most beloved person your greatest enemy even god even srirama krishna when he's experiencing mother kali samadhi can that mother kali be they exist apart from his consciousness it's only in his awareness mother kali appears if it was apart from his awareness he could not have experienced so a real thing does not produce a real thing no that's also not possible and the last one is absolutely impossible real thing produces an unreal thing unreal thing is never produced anyway so there is no question of real thing producing unreal thing what has he said here assad cannot produce assat assad cannot produce sat sat cannot produce seth and sat cannot produce assad basically what he is saying is this world is an appearance false world is experienced is the same thing as saying real world is never created i'll repeat that no real world is experienced is equal to false world is experienced no real snake is experienced is equal to a false snake is experienced no real lion was seen by me then what was i cannot deny i saw something then i have to admit what i saw was a false lion false africa false tree even false body of servoprion another i saw it but it was if you have you have proved to me logically that what i saw with a dream cannot be true therefore i have to admit it was not real africa not real lion not real tree it must be fox false experience of the false is equal to ah that the it is the items which you are saying real real things were not there at all all right let me go to number 41 almost done i'll stop after one or two more vip chantal as someone owing to lack of discrimination or dis um what would i say discernment may in the waking state be contact in contact with unthinkable objects fancying them to be real so also in a dream one sees the objects in the dream alone owing to want of discrimination this 41 so in the waking state we come just like in the dream state we come across entities which are not real and we take them to be real so in the dream state a false lion created all the terror for me similarly in the waking state we also have examples of snake in the rope or a mirage which are not real yet we treat them as real for the time being as long as we are in ignorance the moment we realize what what it is it has no more effect on us so the whole point is bhuta what's precious appreciate means come into contact with relate with how bhuta as if existing if you treat the world and its problems and its terrors as if existing like i treated that lion which was chasing me then you will be in sabzara but when you realize these are appearances then you will not treat they'll still come keep on appearing see the difference is the moment i journeyed from dream to waking the whole africa lion the whole thing disappeared and i also realized it was never there for an enlightened person when you make the journey from the waking to the turiya it's not that the waking world will disappear and the new turia world will appear no this very appearance you will realize the underlying reality is you the consciousness that is what will happen appearance will continue are there examples yes mirage or the water you realize it's a mirage water after that when you look back you see it's still water it looks like water so i'm vivika and under example i had that experience in the deserts of rajputana he looked back and he saw he saw water in the desert he came close to drink it he saw it was a mirage when he started walking again looked back again it looked like water so the appearance of samsara will continue blue sky go to class read physics and optics you will realize sky is not blue after that you look out from the window and look at the sky looks blue it will continue to look blue it will continue to look as if sun is going around the earth but you know it is not true so knowledge will show you but appearance of the world will continue as long as you have eyes you will see form ears you will hear sound but you will realize i what you hear see smell taste touch is nothing other than the brahman the one awareness which you are so i have written here in my notes fiction or error is dangerous if bhuta was appreciate if you come into contact with them as if they are real one more i am trying your patience yeah so i was really moving fast today let me do one more okay this is an important one alert you might be feeling tired of but now a new topic is coming up so what about duality what about bhakti what about religious life all of these things which you are doing god upon the seems to be dismissive so god or party here softens a little he says it is all right instruction about creation has been imparted by the wise for the sake of those who from the facts of experience and adequate behavior vouch for the existence of substantiality and who are ever afraid of the birthless entity question here is all of your vedanta your own advaita vedanta till now you have been talking about the creation of the world what is brahman brahman is that which creates the world in which world exists into which it is dissolved brahma sutra number two brahma your very definition of brahman is that from which the universe is born in which it exists into which it disappears that is brahman upanishad speak about the world emerging from brahman like the web of a spider emerging from a spider from atm from this very atman akash emerged from akasha of air and air from fire from fire water from water the earth all these things are there five elements were created by god and so and so forth so your only vedanta has been talking about this why you are not denying the whole thing that there is no creation at all he says for little children who are scared he says he says those who are terrified of ajata his favorite philosophy nation there are those who are terrified of why they feel that they will lose everything at least with god world is still there good and bad now i have a god to protect me it will be a nice world now god is on my side ishwara is there so dualistic religion is still acceptable but this non-dualism is terrifying you are making the world an appearance you are making me an appearance what is remaining then it's like a void whom will i love where where will i have relationships even the enemy is not there that also i'll be so lonely neither friend nor enemy husband wife father mother children grandchildren all of them disappear into one awareness featureless so narendra nath when sriram krishna touched him for the first time in his visit to srinam krishna the second visit um he saw the world disappearing into a shining void he himself is disappearing falling apart and he shouted wait what are you doing i have parents at home and srinam krishna laughed and he said all right let it be it will happen in its own course so even narendra was scared in and a lesser vision was shown to krishna by krishna to arjuna in the 11th chapter of the bhagavad-gita the vision of the cosmic form vishwa rupa which is the virat not even the nirguna brahman that of course can't be shown has to be realized the cosmic form that itself terrified arjuna you see every hair on my body standing on it and he prayed take it away i don't want this so terror these people they vouch for the reality of the world why upalambhat because it is perceived i see it i hear it i smell it i taste it i touch it and then he says because of orderliness law and behavior bill here often tells me gravity waves have been discovered swami there is so much law and orderliness in this universe a deep investigation shows deep structure of the universe that's what he meant by gravity waves being discovered how can all of this be an appearance he says here god apartheid because of uniformity of experience another secondary meaning is all our sankaracharya explains the varnasrama dharma all that we follow here my my duties as my cast and my as husband wife as brahmana kritriya vaishya sudra as brahmacharya grihastha sannyasi ah bana prasti all of this arrangement of religion morality spiritual practice even all of this depends on the world being real and difference is being there so what does this is buddhi by the wise who are the wise according to him shankaracharya explains those who are advaitans they have given a temporary teaching of duality there is god you say oh thank god there is god there is god there is a world you are there just as you perceive it please worship god have devotion on god then what will happen god will lead you to enlightenment he comes in the next verse i'll mention that and stop number 43 so for those who are terrified of the ajata of the unborn they deviate from the true path that means advaita by relying on their experience of duality the faults arising from acceptance of creation will not bear fruit and the fault too will be insignificant very important point he puts it in a dry philosophical language what he's saying here you know suppose you insist no no two reasons the world is real because i see tangibility upalamba means experienced it is experienced in this way so it must exist we already know it it can't be true the lion and africa and all was not true utility is not an argument of reality externality is not an argument for reality inter-subjective experience is not an argument for reality sense perception is not an argument for reality our dreams and our errors in the world all as testimony to that in every case they fail but we still say no that is too much i see it therefore it must be real it is africa it is a tree and a lion is chasing me this is true no matter what you say in that case he says accept it as true go ahead but won't this be false you are according to your advaita vedanta all this you taught so long yes it will be false it is a deviation from the true path of he means from the path of advaita vedanta what is the word he used vyont arguing for a false position you are arguing for a false position but he says yanti jati here does not mean cast jati means origination the the defect or the harm from accepting a real origination which means accepting a real universe that will not come to you and the the the fault is also he says dosha it's a very small fault that you are committing a fault but you are still committing a very small fault what you are taking up is not real but its the error you are making is fall is small why because the moment you catch hold of god that's what you're aiming at dualistic devotion that's his point moment to catch hold of god you are actually catching hold of the reality of turia only with a name and form as an object so the name and form is ultimately not to be accepted by by god or father but it is the theory alone you're worshiping so dualistic religion here godupath opens the door the masters of non-duality have taught dualistic religion have given their stamp of approval on dualistic religion provisionally secondarily to help us and he assures us that the there is no harm in accepting dualistic religion the even logically you are deviating from non duality yes you are deviating from non duality but the harm of deviating from the truth will not come to uses it will not give birth to its results that means harm will not come and he says the deviation is very small so that's you might find it dualist will find it very condescending on the part of god or father so you are scared that is why all right i am giving you a concession and the concession is false but it will not harm you and it will bring you eventually to the truth okay i'm done for today let's quickly go through although we have gone out of time now what you if if there are people who are busy and we have to go i understand so you can leave but there i'll still deal with a few questions because ah before the questions disappear this is a very important topic it is a rehearsal or a repetition of what godhapath has been pushing towards let's see yes can you hear me yes so i had a question which was very related to the verse 42 uh which is a question was where is ajayathavada coming up in upanishads and commentary on it that is true true but there is always a development by philosophers who come afterwards if i ask you where does dwight awada come up in the upanishads or gita where does advaita vada come up in upanishads means a philosophy a systematization a system so the system comes afterwards if you want to understand mandukya this is the interpretation you're free to argue against it it won't work it is thuriya which is the reality because on the lines of the manduk itself this the the seventh mantra will show you that there is only one reality in this non dual addwayam advaitam you remember prabhanchom if it's non-dual then what is all this duality you cannot deny you are experiencing it nobody can deny that we are experiencing duality multiplicity here we are right now so much multiplicity but if non-duality is correct then what we are experiencing must be an appearance okay so so the logic is that the upper nations are talking about advaita again and again and if driving towards is the irrev it's a sort of irresistible irrevocable logic if duality is false directly implies that duality is false but then what is mithya godapada will not let you escape what is mithya is the mithya thing so already we have admitted real thing has not been produced by brahman no real thing has been produced by brahman so all that yeah because of non-duality so all that we see is appearance now you can see how if you follow that up you'll end up irrevocably in ajayatawada that fall city has the false thing been produced did was that lion ever born was that africa i saw was it was it ever created by the world in the world was that world ever created in big bang no none of that is true ultimately so if if dwight has to hold then has to be there because implies that implies that that's why the third chapter you see the four key words very interesting um ajata non-origination asparsha non-touch advaita non-duality and amani bhava no mind and they are all connected thank you sushma you had a question on the chat and you also raised your hand thank you swamiji um you know i was just feeling that i as sushma if i see myself as a wave or as a buckle of the ocean which is the consciousness and then if i i know i am the consciousness but there are so many other ways and other expressions of the consciousness meaning other divas so-called reality that we see so it doesn't mean that you know continuously there are these expressions in the universe that come up the nama rupa who then continuously need to uh sort of have that curtain taken away and know that they are that is true that is the way uh the whole game of life is being played but once you realize it he will say once one realizes it there is no going back you ca once you see it you cannot unsee it you will always see yourself as this consciousness in which all these waves of the universe and other other jivas are rising and falling but then swamiji that means this this knowing yourself and understanding that you are with the universe so like that expression is gone but that means then it's a continuous movement that will continue with different crew but logically but logically speaking when you are saying continuous movement you are in your mind there is a continuously moving ocean in your mind it's there but god or father will ask is there continuous movement is there actually a movement also is that movement any different from that consciousness no if actually something has happened then you need an explanation why it happened but is actually ultimately from see one is one good way of understanding gowdapada is always to regard yourself regard it from the turiya point of view from brahman point of view what god apartheid is always speaking from brahman point of view consistently so therefore from brahman point of view has anything happened has a jiva come actually no it's from only from our perspective jivas are coming struggling for enlightenment getting realized and so on and so forth so another little giveaway has come hold on to that we will see again tomorrow we'll discuss this this topic will continue tomorrow one more let's take it yeah so in your dream example the one which was climbing the tree let's say it's the dream person it's not you the one who is sleeping and yet it is not separate from me it cannot exist without me yeah but uh let's consider the dream person is like jiva yeah in that case it's not that the jiva wakes up um it is true you wake up wait isn't it true no the the person who's sleeping and dreaming wakes up it is true but the jiva is not separate from that see the jiva you have to remember in the mandukya system in the manduka system what is the jiva waker dreamer deep sleeper and the jiva journey is continuously between these three it is the jiva who is weak you are the jiva who is awake you are the jiva as a dream person and you are the jiva in deep sleep and you keep journaling between these stages but in your example that person who was climbing is not even actually there not even actually there and yet appears in that case is not even actually there but but appearances there appear in something yes but it's not the jeeva who wakes up it's the person who's sleeping and dreaming who is the person who's sleeping and dreaming the jiva isn't it who is the person who's sleeping and drinking that dream yeah i am the waker i had fallen asleep and then i was a dreamer i woke up i came back into my waking state but in the dream state it's like suppose you're playing a virtual reality game in that you're walking around in a place and you have what is called an avatar there yeah now that about that is not you and yet for the time being you are fully identified with it you control its actions and all it all the activities which are going on so that concept what i'm saying is that person the person who was climbing the tree yeah he didn't wake up in one sense yeah i who was sleeping i woke up but that person who was climbing the tree is none other than me see suppose there was another person level there's a lion you if you say that lion did not wake up correct but if you say that the person who was climbing the tree did not wake up that's there's a there's it's both true and false that person does not exist at all and yet because i was fully immersed in that person and had forgotten my sleeping that i am sleeping on the bed so when i woke up you can say that person woke up into his real nature as the sleeper that you can say the lion also woke up no you cannot see can you see the big difference between the lion and you yourself uh you are the jiva who is experiencing the world including the lion but you are not internally identified with the lion it's an object of your experience all the objects of your experience including tree lion and the world disappear and that which you are awaken you are identified with that that tree climber that you suddenly realize no i am not the tree climber i am the one sleeping in that bed i am sitting in the bed that was your realization and that's why it is said in this way brahma satyam jagat mithya jiva brahman opera it does not say brahman is real world is false jiva is also false brahman wakes up no it is the brahman is the reality the world is false and the jiva is none other than brahman otherwise what will happen is when ultimate realization when you wake from the turiya to the from the waking state to the tudya that that's the whole point of this then you will say that turia woke up but arjuna did not wake up no that who that trudy which thought it was arjuna now realizes it's turya that's it but arjuna was never there in that case i mean if we take this as unreal but unreal means the two kinds of unreal one is the son of a barren woman who has never been there see never there never experienced it's like i have experienced arjuna arjun is not really there actually you have experienced arjun but arjun is not really there what is really there i am there what is that ah as brahman correct so as brahman you are really there arjuna is not a second reality but arjuna is definitely your appearance that you cannot deny you are experiencing it now what i'm trying to say is everything is my appearance yes but in all that everything there is one with which you identify internally that is called the jiva and that the jiva alone is the person who is struggling jiva alone wants to come to vedanta class jiva alone wants to realize itself as uh turiya so the jiva must be isolated from everything else because it's the jivers project yeah all right ah we have really gone over time so what we will do now is that we will take this up tomorrow because we have continuous classes no problem keep it in mind we will take it up tomorrow all right ah so there were questions rodrigo has some good questions please hold on to them can you save these questions and ask me tomorrow because this chat will disappear tomorrow all right srirama take care instead of a weekly gap we'll have only 24 hour gap we'll see you very soon tomorrow all right take care of krishna krishna